finance
45 million downloads. One question: what does it actually take to build wealth? Each week, Paula Pant brings in economists, investors, business leaders, authors, and researchers to dig into the five pillars of financial freedom — financial psychology, increasing income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. Deep insights rooted in economics and behavioral finance. First-principles thinking. No surface-level tips. Follow or Subscribe to hear new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Get smarter with money. Build wealth.
Microsoft has offered a new voluntary early retirement package to 60,000 employees. The hosts noted that during a previous, smaller rollout earlier in the year, most employees declined, after which Microsoft laid off several thousand workers.
An active duty Air Force major with a family history of early-onset Alzheimer's and a potential genetic risk called into the show. He, his wife, and two children have a net worth of $2.5 million and are seeking guidance on life insurance, long-term disability, and asset protection before undergoing genetic testing.
Virginia, a federal employee who unexpectedly took early retirement at 58, is debating whether to rent a new home for $2,700 a month or take out a $200,000 to $250,000 mortgage. She currently owns a small condo with no mortgage that could generate about $550 a month if rented out.
An anonymous couple in their late 30s to early 40s with a $520,000 mortgage at 6% interest are considering making extra monthly payments toward their principal. The hosts advise that accelerating mortgage payments is a strong de-risking strategy, effectively capturing a guaranteed return.
Noah Kerner, co-founder and CEO of Acorns, shares that 42% of adults across America are money avoidant as a stress reduction strategy. He notes that this avoidance often begins in youth and leads to missed opportunities in compounding and building long-term wealth.
Discussing financial psychology, Noah Kerner and host Paula Pant note that 57% of parents would rather discuss sex and drugs than money with their children, contributing to ongoing generational financial taboos and fears.
During the episode introduction, host Paula Pant highlights that investing app Acorns has served more than 16 million people who have collectively invested upwards of $33 billion through the platform.
An executor managing a parent's estate is struggling with what to do with a $500,000 brokerage account mostly in S&P 500 index funds during a lengthy probate process. Paula Pant suggests keeping a long-term time horizon and asset allocation, while former financial planner Joe Salcihai argues that as a fiduciary protecting beneficiaries, the prudent move is to liquidate to cash immediately.
An anonymous investor shares that a low-fee long-term government bond index fund lost 38% of its value over six years, leading them to question the differences between holding individual bonds and bond funds.
A long-time retirement plan sponsor with 1,100 employees argues that target date funds are highly effective defaults for the vast majority of workers who do not actively manage their portfolios, pushing back against criticisms of the funds.
Economics professors Owen Zidar and Eric Zwick reveal that there are roughly 3 million private business owners in the United States with net worths over $5 million, averaging $25 million. Collectively, these closely held business owners possess more than ten times the wealth of the entire Forbes 400 combined, driven primarily by direct business income rather than wages or stock portfolios.
Research from Treasury Department tax data analyzed by Owen Zidar and Eric Zwick indicates that the rise in top 1% income growth over the last 30 to 40 years is predominantly driven by direct business income from closely held, pass-through operating businesses rather than wage income or stock dividends.
Using comprehensive data tracking 10 million entrepreneurs starting back to 2000, researchers found that the majority of people who started a successful small business did not come from the top 10% of the income distribution. Most star founders emerged from the poor and middle classes, though children born to wealthy parents remain statistically more likely to start a business.
Guests Owen Zidar and Eric Zwick highlighted the story of Larry Miller, who started working in the parts department of a Toyota dealership, turned around a struggling dealership in Utah, and eventually acquired multiple dealerships and the Utah Jazz, illustrating the potential of building expertise within an industry.
Discussing self-made business founders, the podcast highlighted Dick Portillo, who used a thousand dollars cobbled together from the Marines and his brother to start a hot dog stand out of a shack without running water, eventually scaling it into a business sold for $1 billion.
Paula Pant introduces her guest, Alec Litowitz, a former partner at Citadel and founder of Magnetar Capital, who is releasing a new book titled 'The Adaptability Quotient.' Litowitz emphasizes that the current discourse on AI often focuses on the technology itself rather than its impact on human cognition and decision-making.
Alec Litowitz defines the Adaptability Quotient (AQ) as a learnable framework for making decisions in uncertain environments, distinguishing it from IQ and EQ. He argues that while IQ and EQ are valuable for navigating a known world, AQ is crucial for responding to a changing world.
Alec Litowitz uses the story of Ernest Shackleton's Antarctic expedition as an example of adaptability in action. Despite the loss of their ship and the failure to achieve their original goal of crossing the continent, Shackleton and his crew prioritized the survival of every team member, demonstrating a shift in mission and remarkable resilience.
Michael Hingson recounts how his guide dog, Roselle, woke him up in the early morning of September 11, 2001, due to a developing thunderstorm, which was unusual for the dog. This early wake-up call meant Hingson was already on his way to his office in the World Trade Center when the first plane hit.
Michael Hingson explains that his company, Fonum Corporation, secured office space on the 78th floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center. This prime location was made possible by a favorable lease agreement negotiated after the 1993 bombing, which had caused some tenants to move out.
Michael Hingson clarifies the role of a guide dog, emphasizing that they do not lead their handlers to a destination but ensure safe travel. He describes the relationship as a team effort where the handler is the team leader, directing the dog and keeping it focused, while respecting the dog's job of navigating obstacles.
Michael Hingson shares anecdotes about the personalities and sense of humor of his guide dogs, Holland and Roselle. He recounts how Holland once mischievousy led him into a mailbox and later attempted to guide him down a non-existent ramp, and how Roselle had a habit of hiding socks and slippers.
Michael Hingson describes his morning routine on September 11, 2001, including a slight delay in his usual train due to a track issue, which ironically meant he boarded the train he would normally take. He details his commute via train from Westfield, New Jersey, to Penn Station, then the PATH train directly to the World Trade Center, arriving at his 78th-floor office at 7:40 AM.
Michael Hingson shares his technical expertise, noting he holds a master's degree in physics from UC Irvine and is a licensed amateur radio operator. He explains how his technical background, influenced by his engineer father, allowed him to deeply understand his company's products and assist in problem-solving.
Michael Hingson asserts that blind individuals can effectively use PowerPoint presentations, just like sighted people. He explains that blind users utilize braille scripts, which allows them to read their presentations even in the dark, a capability not available to sighted presenters who rely on visual cues.
A listener named Jamie is contemplating a family gap year but is hesitant because she loves her job as a PA and doesn't believe it will be available upon her return. She has substantial savings and a good income, leading the hosts to believe the financial aspect is manageable.
Joe and Paula discuss key factors that contribute to job satisfaction, citing studies that highlight autonomy, mastery, and purpose as primary drivers. They also mention the impact of one's direct boss on overall job contentment.
Paula and Joe highlight the Camp Fi community as a gathering for individuals interested in financial independence and intentional living. They describe the community as one where members share a focus on thoughtfully allocating limited resources like time and money.
The discussion touches upon the Camp Fi events, noting their expansion beyond the US. Joe mentions attending Camp Fi Italy, describing it as an amazing experience.
A 42-year-old PA earning $140,000 annually with additional income from locum work is seeking advice on a family gap year. Her financial details include $686,000 in savings across various accounts, a $425,000 home with $95,000 mortgage, and annual expenses of $96,000.
In a remarkable turn of events, two individuals have been rescued alive from a hydropower tunnel in Nepal, nine days after devastating floods struck the region. The rescued men, identified as Sanji Shah (30) and Kabir Maharajan (45), were found trapped approximately 557 feet underground.
The latest US jobs report revealed that the economy added 162,000 jobs in August, significantly surpassing the expected 53,000. The unemployment rate remained steady at 4.1%, while labor force participation saw a slight increase.
The strong performance in the US jobs report for August, which tripled expectations, has counter-intuitively led to market hesitation. This is due to the increased likelihood of the Federal Reserve raising interest rates in September.
The leisure and hospitality sector showed the strongest job gains between July and August, adding 62,000 jobs. State and local government also saw an increase, with 40,000 jobs added in that period.
In contrast to growth sectors, the information technology and financial activities sectors experienced job losses in the July-August period. The IT sector lost 23,000 jobs, while financial activities lost 11,000.
Looking at the period from August 2025 to August 2026, private education and health services saw the largest job gains, adding over half a million jobs. Professional and business services followed, with 152,000 jobs added.
Over the past 12 months, the federal government sector experienced the most significant job decrease, losing 242,000 jobs. The information technology sector also saw a substantial decline, with 115,000 jobs lost.
The US jobs report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) presented an optimistic outlook, while the ADP report indicated a slower pace of hiring. The BLS reported that job gains tripled expectations, whereas ADP showed an increase of only 38,000 private sector jobs.
Revised data for June indicates a gain of 31,000 jobs, a decrease from the initial report of 57,000 jobs. Despite this revision, the overall employment data is considered strong.
Paula Pant, who was born in Kathmandu, Nepal, commented on the country's lack of a ski industry despite having the world's highest mountains. She attributes this to poor infrastructure and lack of development, which also impacts rescue efforts.
Paula Pant highlighted the resilience of Nepali people, drawing parallels to the nation's ability to topple its government in 48 hours and adapt during natural disasters. Joe Salci noted the military's non-interference in this process as a sign of the people's will.
Paula Pant recounted a story about Morgan Housel's backcountry skiing experience where a random decision saved his life after an avalanche struck his friends. This anecdote serves as an illustration of how unpredictable events can have profound consequences.
Paula Pant emphasized the need to plan for uncontrollable external factors in financial planning, likening it to managing risks that can appear unexpectedly. Joe Salci agreed, referencing Annie Duke's advice to focus on inputs rather than outcomes.
Paula Pant discussed annuities as a way to secure guaranteed lifetime income, particularly for individuals who struggle with managing their finances. She explained that annuities replace market risk with longevity risk, providing a stable income stream even if one lives a very long time.
Sahil Bloom shared a pivotal moment in May 2021 when a friend's stark reminder of the limited number of times he would see his parents before they passed away led him to a significant life change. This realization prompted him and his wife to move back to the East Coast to be closer to their families.
Sahil Bloom discussed the concept of 'The Tail End,' popularized by Tim Urban, which reframes time not as an infinite resource but as a finite number of moments. This perspective, which highlights the limited number of times we experience cherished events or moments with loved ones, aims to encourage greater appreciation and intentionality in how we spend our time.
The podcast introduces the idea that true wealth encompasses more than just financial wealth. Guest Sahil Bloom highlights four additional types of wealth: mental, social, time, and physical wealth, arguing that people should actively invest in all five domains for a more fulfilling life.
Sahil Bloom emphasizes that individuals have more control over their lives than they often realize. He uses his decision to move across the country to be closer to his parents as an example of how taking a single, even drastic, action can significantly change one's trajectory and bring life into better alignment with what truly matters.
Sahil Bloom shared a deeply personal story about his struggles with work-life balance, including chasing career success in California and neglecting his family. After a difficult period, including fertility struggles, he and his wife made a significant move to prioritize family, leading to a more aligned and fulfilling life.
A 37-year-old doctor and nurse couple, Mike and his wife, are planning to retire early in their 40s with a projected $4 million portfolio. Mike is seeking advice on an aggressive asset allocation of 80% stocks, 10% long-term treasuries, and 10% gold, questioning if it's too conservative given their flexibility to return to work if needed.
Joe Saul-Sehy expresses a general agreement with the caller that risk parity portfolios might be too conservative for early retirees. He notes that while the math behind risk parity is sound, he has concerns about its behavioral aspects and the rigidity of adhering to a single investment philosophy, especially when many experienced investors do not strictly follow it.
Joe Saul-Sehy advises a 'bucket approach' for early retirees, suggesting one year's worth of expenses be kept in cash as a buffer against market volatility. He recommends a more aggressive portfolio for the remainder, with the flexibility to rebalance or shift funds between aggressive and more stable assets during market downturns.
Paula Pant advises listeners to optimize their investment portfolios based on their desired lifestyle and expenses, rather than adhering to arbitrary portfolio balances. She emphasizes that net worth's relevance lies in its ability to generate an income stream that supports their lifestyle, suggesting that with sufficient cash reserves and income flexibility, aggressive portfolio strategies can be pursued.
The US economy unexpectedly lost 23,000 jobs in July, a figure that significantly defied economist expectations of a 95,000 job gain. This occurred even as the unemployment rate decreased from 4.2% to 4.1%. Revisions to previous months' data also showed a slowdown, with May's job growth revised down by half and June's by two-thirds.
The divergence between job losses and a falling unemployment rate can be attributed to factors like an increase in self-employment or individuals holding fewer jobs. The unemployment rate survey focuses on individual work status, counting the self-employed and not penalizing those who move from two jobs to one, unlike the establishment survey which tracks payroll jobs.
The recent job data indicates that hiring is primarily concentrated in healthcare, private education, and social assistance sectors. While construction and transportation/warehousing saw some job gains, manufacturing and wholesale trade experienced stagnation. Notably, leisure and hospitality, retail, and financial services saw declines, with leisure and hospitality shedding jobs despite the recent World Cup.
The host purchased a 30-year US Treasury bond for the first time, driven by yields reaching 5.2%, a level not seen since 2007. This decision comes after the Federal Reserve's meeting where they voted to hold rates steady, which reportedly spooked investors and drove up long-term bond yields.
A 30-year Treasury bond yield of 5.2% signifies that investors are demanding higher returns for lending money to the government over three decades. While Treasury bonds are considered very safe, holding them to maturity means receiving nominal dollars back, which could have reduced purchasing power due to inflation over the 30-year term.
Beth Kobliner, a personal finance expert who has covered money for 30 years, states that current young adults (18-34) are experiencing the worst economic outlook since tracking began in 1978, even worse than during the Great Recession and the pandemic. This pessimism is attributed to factors such as increased difficulty in finding jobs compared to previous generations and the high cost of living, including a median home price of $430,000.
Beth Kobliner highlights a significant shift in the job market for recent college graduates, noting that their unemployment rate is now higher than the general population. In the 1990s, recent graduates had a lower unemployment rate, but today, they face increased difficulty securing employment.
Beth Kobliner explains that despite a strong stock market, young people feel pervasive pessimism due to factors like student loan debt and the high cost of housing. The median home price of $430,000 is a significant barrier, leading many young adults to take on more debt and feel uncertain about their financial futures.
Beth Kobliner observes a concerning trend where younger adults (18-34) are now more pessimistic about the economy than older demographics (55+). This sentiment reversal is described as a 'freaky Friday switch,' indicating that the economic burdens are disproportionately felt by the younger generation.
Mike, a 51-year-old professor, is planning to retire in 12 years with his spouse, who is 43. They have accumulated a total of $670,000 across various retirement accounts, aiming for a $2 million portfolio by retirement. Mike also expects an $80,000 annual military pension and TRICARE for health insurance in retirement.
Paula Pant questions Mike's decision to allocate only $20,000 to his daughter's 529 plan, especially since the daughter will be starting college around the same time Mike plans to retire. She suggests keeping college savings separate from retirement drawdown planning due to potential cash flow changes and sequence of returns risk.
Cody Berman, author of 'Retire by 30,' outlines two primary strategies for achieving financial independence (FI): the traditional 'nest egg' approach of saving 25 times your expenses, and the 'cash flow FI' approach, which focuses on generating passive income to cover monthly bills. He notes that cash flow FI can be a better hedge against inflation and market downturns, as it doesn't require drawing down principal.
Cody Berman prefers the 'cash flow FI' strategy over the 'nest egg' approach due to its psychological benefits. He observes that individuals who have achieved significant financial success often feel more secure when receiving regular cash flows from assets rather than managing a large lump sum of capital.
Cody Berman reached financial independence shortly before his 26th birthday with a diverse portfolio. This included $500,000 in the stock market, equivalent to a $20,000 annual withdrawal using the 4% rule, plus 13 rental properties generating about $3,700 per month in cash flow, and a digital products business earning over $10,000 per month passively.
Cody Berman categorizes side hustles into four types: trading time for money (freelancing, manual labor), scalable side hustles (rental properties, digital products), sharing economy platforms (renting out assets like cars or homes), and hybrid hustles, which involve scaling a time-for-money service into a business with employees.
Cody Berman utilized a four-hour daily commute, involving trains and walking, as a dedicated time to work on his side hustles. He describes this commute as a 'forcing function' that enabled him to consistently dedicate hours to building his businesses outside of his primary job.
Cody Berman was motivated to escape his corporate job by observing the dissatisfaction of his superiors. He noted that even his boss and his boss's boss, despite high incomes, seemed unhappy with their work-life balance and personal issues, leading Berman to seek an alternative path to financial independence.
Cody Berman found resonance with Jack Reins' observations in 'Young Money,' noting a shared sentiment about career dissatisfaction. Both individuals realized they did not want their bosses' jobs, which served as a catalyst for seeking alternative paths to financial independence.
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